Bergeron: Tremblay sells too many cars
Richard Bergeron has written a damning report on the reign of Gérald Tremblay: too many cars in Montreal, not enough new living spaces for people and particularly for families.
One thing puzzles me about these trends. How do you reconcile a net loss of population with a constantly growing number of cars?
Jorgh 08:32 on 2012/10/29 Permalink
Two things: the net loss is especially family with young children, the latter of which don’t have their own cars. Those that stay or move in are more likely to live alone, be of driving age, and have their own car. Thus, where there used to be 4.x people to a car (single car families, I remember those, they’re practically non-existent now), now you have 3.x but with 2 cars (numbers made up).
Blork 08:39 on 2012/10/29 Permalink
also, does that “too many cars in Montreal” statement only refer to cars that “live” in Montreal? Or does it also refer to cars coming into the city every day from the ‘burbs?
Cheap financing and easy leasing means cars are pretty cheap these days. You can have a car for not much more than the price of an Opus card (not including gas, etc.) I think I saw an ad recently for something like $120 a month.
Mathieu 09:02 on 2012/10/29 Permalink
If costs are really a concern, owning a car and/or living further is almost never the right choice. If you live in a central borough, you’ll never need to own a car and you could live with less than $100/person in transportation spending. The difference in costs between an appartement/house in the city vs. in Longueuil/Laval doesn’t make the latter an attractive choice. Appartments are cheaper but the cost a TRAM3 alone cancels the savings. AND you’ll eventually need a car more often; a car that costs at least $300/month to buy and maintain.
steven 09:36 on 2012/10/29 Permalink
Show of hands: how many of you anti-car people have kids?
Didn’t think so.
Kevin 09:37 on 2012/10/29 Permalink
Cars are pretty cheap these days. @Blork talks about new cars, but the bottom dropped out of the used car market 3 years ago.
My upstairs neighbour is an example of how you can see more cars with fewer people. She bought a used car a couple years ago to drive out to the maritimes. At least 5 days out of 7 it’s parked on our NDG street because she likes to walk/metro/bus to work. But she does use it on occasion (kitty litter runs, that big grocery shop) and doesn’t see the point in selling because the ongoing expense is minimal.
A couple months ago her boyfriend pretty much moved in. He’s got his car, which he needs because he’s already up at 5:30 to get to the warehouse on time, and there’s no way he’s getting there via public transit. He also won’t sell, because he needs his car when he’s going out to his own apartment on the south shore or to pick up his daughter with whom he shares custody.
I’m a one-car family. My wife needs it to get to work in Laval and we use it on weekends to visit family in the ‘burbs. When my wife’s job ends in March (because her company shuts down) and the next phase of her career begins, even if she takes public transit all the time we’re not going to sell the car — there’s no point, since we’ve had it for 6 years, it’s long since paid for, and the ongoing expenses will be minimal.
@Mathieu There is always a tradeoff between cash and time. I could save cash (in the grand scheme of things) by taking public transit all the time. But I lose a LOT more time no matter where I am going. Even a Thursday night trip from NDG to Place des Arts is faster via car than public transit.
Tux 09:42 on 2012/10/29 Permalink
Owning a car is not, repeat not cheap, no matter what anyone says. Gas, license, insurance, and maintenance (3 of those are unpredictable costs) in addition to the actual cost of the car… it all adds up. If you live on the island, most likely you can get away with not owning a car, and if you can get away with it you should. Cars suck because their ubiquity means that major transit infrastructure changes can’t be accomplished. Imagine rush hour if we converted all the highways to rail lines with stations at every exit and trains every 5 minutes.
Kevin 09:59 on 2012/10/29 Permalink
@Tux
Unpredictable costs? Only if you can’t read the manual. Maintenance is a fixed cost and the manual provides a timeline. Insurance doesn’t jump around unless you’re a lousy driver (and if you don’t like your rates, call up a broker). Gas ping pongs around but prices have some elasticity and can be budgeted for.
The key question is the tradeoff: How much is your *time* worth to you?
Matt 10:00 on 2012/10/29 Permalink
@Steven, I don’t have nor do I want a car. I have a daughter. Strapping her into and getting her out of the car is such an enormous pain in the ass that even if I had a car I would never use it. Life with a child in a city with good public transporation is much easier without that gas-guzzling ball and chain and I would never consider getting one so long as I live in such a place.
I really hate it when people think you need a car to raise a kid. You don’t. Human beings did great for hudreds of thousands of year without them, they are not indispensable. In fact, they are root causes of obesity and disease due to the sedentary lifestyles they promote and toxins they spew into our air. Not to mention all of the money we save and mechanical headaches we never have to deal with. I don’t hate the automobile but in cities they quickly wear out their welcome.
Mathieu 10:04 on 2012/10/29 Permalink
@Kevin: That’s exactly my point. There are benefits to having a car. However, it is rarely the cheapest option and if your main goal is to save money and you don’t care so much about “losing” 15 minutes here and there, you’re better off without it. All you have to ask yourself is how much you’re willing to pay to save time (and how often you need to save time, as a taxi or communauto can be a really good solution for some). A car is a luxury in a city like Montreal!
Stefan 10:16 on 2012/10/29 Permalink
In almost all regions in the world, car usage is constantly rising towards the maximum of ~1/adult (except where it is not already), with some notable exceptions, usually well-managed cities. Fixed and variable cost for cars have decreased historically (even for petrol).
But what is more important I think, is the globalization on a local level. A generation ago, you could do most things locally, including work. Compare that with today – transporting yourself becomes more and more of a necessity, and is expected. Public transport has been deconstructed massively in North America until the nineties at the same time and is still stigmatized there (from a european perspective). Also most of the people who were used to that lifestyle, not needing a driver’s license, like my grandmother, are dead now.
steven: i did not own a car when i was living in montreal with my 2-year old son. he absolutely hated being imprisoned in that child seat when we took a communauto to visit relatives, and he’s right about it – it’s not natural to do that to children. possibly, in a future generation, imprisoning children like that (and for hours!) will be seen as a crime. now that we live in vienna, he’s a train-and-tramway fan.
Blork 10:18 on 2012/10/29 Permalink
FWIW, I’m not saying people should buy cars, or even that it’s cheaper than not having a car, I’m just pointing out that it’s not as expensive as people think, especially with the low finance charges and easy leasing. And as Kevin pointed out, used cars are pretty cheap too, due largely to all those 3 and 4 year leases expiring, creating a glut of used cars for sale. And for many people, bottom line on cost is not the most important thing.
I also want to point out that much of the numbers you see regarding car ownership are hugely inflated. You hear there figures like “$10,000 a year!” and whatnot. Most of those figures are based on large American-style cars owned by USers who are insured to the hilt and drive 80 km a day on their commutes and pay for daily underground parking at New York City rates, and they change their very expensive SUV tires every two years.
The reality is far different for most people, especially if — like me — you don’t drive much.
Back in the 90s I lived on Hotel de Ville, near Duluth. I worked in Old Montreal (in what is now the Cité Multimedia). In fine weather I would bike to work. In foul weather and in winter I drove my car. The statistics were like this: Walk: 45 minutes. Public transit: 30-35 minutes. Drive: 7 or 8 minutes.
I paid $1400 for that car. Insurance was around $300 a year I think. $25 a month for parking at work. $10 a week for gas, max. Maybe $1000 a year in maintenance. So that works out to about $175 a month (not including the original cost of the car). I had a job and wasn’t suffering financially, so I was happy to have the car then.
Again, I’m not saying people in the city SHOULD have cars or whatever, I’m just throwing a bit of perspective in there. If I lived on (or near) the Plateau now I doubt very much I’d have a car. (In fact, even then I wouldn’t have bothered if the public transit option were better.)
Blork 10:24 on 2012/10/29 Permalink
OK, I just did a Google maps check, and that drive is listed as 13 minutes. But public transit is listed as 32 minutes (best case scenario, which never happens) and 40 and 47 minutes, more realistically. (And in the 90s, the Metro used to fail a lot more than it does now.)
cheese 10:34 on 2012/10/29 Permalink
@steven: I have a young daughter and we do not own a car here in Montreal. Way too much hassle for us, and like Stefan’s comment, my little one also hates being strapped into a car seat. When we go to Ontario we often rent a car while there (usually we take the train there) and it’s not fun for anyone. But how else to navigate the ‘burbs?
Back to Montreal, our next door neighbors have a three year old son and no car. Among our friends most do not have cars even if they have one or two kids. I’m not sure of the car owning status of some of the parents of my daughters little friends but they always arrive on bike or foot when I see them. I think it’s pretty common to live in Montreal without a car and still raise kids.
Half the fun should be “getting there” and walking and riding allows one to interract and be a part of your environment. It’s active and participatory. Even the bus has oportunity for meeting people.
Tux 10:50 on 2012/10/29 Permalink
@Kevin Maintenance is not a fixed cost. If you have a new car, maybe you can predict with some degree of accuracy what’s coming, but used? Forget it. You mean to say you’ve never been hit with an unexpected car-related expense? You predicted every repair that was needed months in advance? Nuh uh, don’t think so.
Insurance: You make a claim, the premiums go up, you can’t predict when you’ll need to make a claim (that’s kind of the premise behind insurance. )
Gas: By “ping pong around” you mean “On a steady slow rise” right ? I guess that’s predictable… predictably more expensive over time. You know there’s a limited supply of fossil fuels on the planet right?
Louis 10:56 on 2012/10/29 Permalink
@Steven: I have two children (5 and 3 y/o) and the idea of owning a car never crossed my mind. Only my wife has a driver’s license.
marco 11:08 on 2012/10/29 Permalink
I have two kids and I love having a car. I always bike or walk to work but there is no way I’d be able to get my kids to swimming/piano/karate/ballet lessons plus hockey games/practice at venues all over Montreal and the south shore without driving. I also can’t imagine how you carry a weeks worth of groceries on the bus. That must be very challenging.
ant6n 11:15 on 2012/10/29 Permalink
@marco
You don’t carry groceries at all. My week’s worth of groceries get delivered to my door – much more convenient, and not expensive at all (at my store it’s 2$ if you bought more than 50$, 1$ if you bought more than 100$).
Ian 12:00 on 2012/10/29 Permalink
@Steven – I have 2 kids, no car. Consider my hand raised. I get my kids to school, garderie, swimming classes, etc. with no problem – and I do weekly groceries so delivery is free (besides the 5 bucks I pay the guy who carries them up my admittedly steep stairs). I can understand why people like to drive but why do so many of them need to be single occupants in a minivan or SUV? FWIW I could afford a car and do enjoy driving, but frankly it’s just not worth the hassle.
Kevin 12:33 on 2012/10/29 Permalink
/aside: I love that I don’t drive a car but am the pro-car guy here. And in a few days I’ll be putting my motorcycle away and taking the metro like the rest of you ;)
@Mathieu
I understand your arguments, but I live close to the metro in NDG. If I was even 1 km further west your ’15 minutes here and there’ would add up to an hour a day. I’d rather spend the money on a more expensive home, but I can understand why others would prefer to spend it on a car.
@Tux
The manual lists expected lifespan of components. Every reputable mechanic that anyone I know has used has been able to provide a timeline of when parts will fail. As for gas, prices rise and fall. (It’s $1.29 now, or a little bit cheaper than it was in the summer of 2008. Let’s not get into inflation). Car manufacturers are also squeezing more efficiency out of engines — fossil fuel sources that were considered ‘locked’ become available because of new technology/viable price points –new ways to power engines yada yada…
I can put it another way. When I was a teenager borrowing my parents’ car it cost me $30 for half a tank. It now costs me $25 for half a tank that can go twice the distance, and minimum wage has doubled.
And… electric cars get special parking/charging spots at shopping malls.
@ant6n
Is there anywhere really good to order groceries from in Montreal? When I lived in NYC I did everything through Fresh Direct but nothing in Montreal comes even close to ease of use or quality of food.
steven 12:35 on 2012/10/29 Permalink
You can have a kids and not have a car but it means that those kids will be sitting around at home a lot. Kids have tons of activities that require motoring to get there: birthday parties, hockey games, apple picking, visits to granny’s, ballet lessons, swimming lessons, it never ends. Not a single day goes by where a parent doesn’t have to get in the car to drive some kid some place.
David Tighe 12:53 on 2012/10/29 Permalink
I think some kind of basic car is essential in Canada where suburban and inter-town or city transport is inexistant or expensive. How do you get to see relations, visit a park, go away for a weekend and so on?
One could easily live in Paris or London without a car but not here. In short, we are North America are poor at the level of mobility choices, Europe is high. This is unlikely to change much in a context where public investment is seen by most as a waste of money
Stefan 12:53 on 2012/10/29 Permalink
@blork: statistics canada gives the total costs of average car ownership and that means that if you pay much less, someone else will pay much more than the $9000 something/year, e.g. people on the countryside, or company usage). so, either they grossly inflated that amount or you grossly deflated your own amount (or have neglected some costs).
@steven: my son is carried by bike or walks with me and spends his days usually outside. in a few years, he will be biking himself and when he’s old enough, get to his friends by bicycle, without me having to get involved in the transportation. we go apple picking and visiting grandparents by train. i’d find it very annoying to have to accompany him everywhere later on just to bring him. i am also at a loss to understand why so many kids today have to be filled up with activities.
instead, i’m focusing on educating him so that he becomes autonomous – as i was when i was that age, and found many creative things to do which were not necessarily organized, or had to be transported to and paid for. and it helps that i chose a location for living where the desired places can be reached in reasonable time. a question of choosing one’s lifestyle, i guess.
cheese 12:56 on 2012/10/29 Permalink
@steven: just because a car is an integral ingredient in all the activities you mention for *your* life doesn’t mean that all parents are in the same situation. I find it odd that you think just because something makes sense for you that everyone else should do the same. None of the car-free kids that I know in Montreal spend much time sitting around at home. In fact it is the suburban kids I know near Toronto that come closer to fitting that description (two car families).
For weekend getaways a car is pretty much required here (not so in Europe) but one can be easily rented, and Communauto is a pretty good service (Zip car in other cities is even better).
Ian 12:58 on 2012/10/29 Permalink
@steven – way to overgeneralize. I’m always out doing stuff with my kids, in our spare time we have tons of parks, the library, the mountain, or just going for a walk in our neighbourhood for the sheer pleasure of it. We also get out of our neighbourhood for museums, movies, and even make it to the biodome and la ronde now and then. As is usually the case of parents with small kids, we know quite a few families in the neighbourhood and while we are often going on playdates or to parties, they all spend lots of time out of the apartment too and miraculously all of us without cars. This is one small part of what makes living downtown with kids so great.
Stefan 13:06 on 2012/10/29 Permalink
@david tighe: even in europe, on the countryside there is a lot less you can do/much more inconvenient if you do not have a car, especially for the needs of younger people.
but even in north american cities, if in walkable distance you can work, buy groceries and there is a nice park with playgrounds and some distractions like cinema, theatre, restos, zoo you don’t often need to get out of that area. i have friends with kids who rarely feel the need to.
and for occasional outings, even without renting car, surely that your options are reduced, but not non-existing. you can go places only accessible by motorized transport by way of organized bus trips etc.
contrary to these limitations, if many people in your area live locally as well, it forms a community, because people spend more time there, meet each other in their daily passings and you have the chance do or organize things together with them. And if there were less cars, the children could even play outside on the street.
david m 13:32 on 2012/10/29 Permalink
i’d never live somewhere where i had to own a car to enjoy life. i had a car from teenhood until some truck plowed into in on laurier street just west of parc avenue back in 2006, i’ve driven maybe a dozen times since, and haven’t even had a driving license since 2010. i hate and never visit suburbs anyway, so my car was basically used to zip down to atwater market or jean talon, hit jarry street for a quick bite at sana, etc. but after it disappeared from my life, lo! i started shopping and eating a lot more locally, getting more exercise, saving fairly important sums of money on a monthly basis, and i never again had to negotiate the dread street cleaning/snow plowing schedule. it has been so long since i’ve been a driver that i can probably never go back – these days, i feel uncomfortable being in a car, it just feels so dangerous and weird.
all of this to say that i’m exactly who supports bergeron. increase residential and commercial density, problematize automobile use and ownership, vastly improve pedestrian life, radically expand public transit = yep.
steven 15:13 on 2012/10/29 Permalink
I have had a car. And I have not had a car. Having a car is better. Way better. Get a car and you’ll immediately think: what the hell was I thinking before? Not saying that they’re great for the environment, or the city, or whatever. They’re just very, very useful for a load of good reasons.
Kate 16:52 on 2012/10/29 Permalink
All I have to do is listen to people ratcheting up the tension about parking and I’m very glad I can get around town without bringing two tons of metal with me. David Tighe, I know a fair number of Montrealers without cars, they’re seriously not necessary here. You’re brainwashed, man.
As for the expense, I note that there isn’t a part of Montreal so poor that the streets are not full of cars anyway, so I know you can run a car, albeit probably not a late model, at a modest income level. People make it a priority, I should imagine, and I understand it can be, if you have a job you need to drive to.
ant6n 17:21 on 2012/10/29 Permalink
@Kevin
Normal supermarkets deliver. You go through the supermarket filling up your shopping cart with the things you want and that you picked; at the cash register you ask for delivery and they put it in boxes, and deliver to your door. I know Provigo does it, but it may depend on the actual store.
I personally use the PA supermarket – which I find better for fresh foods, meats, cheese, bread and produce than the usual big supermarkets, but it’s not so good for boxed stuff (which I don’t buy a lot). I used to go to the store three, four times a week, but now with delivery, I go once, maybe twice. And it’s much more convenient than anything else. (Actually while typing this, my two big boxes full of food just arrived at the door)
jeather 17:31 on 2012/10/29 Permalink
As it turns out, if you own a car you can choose to get around town without when you so desire. They’re absolutely not necessary in Montreal, I agree, and they’re not free, but to say that they aren’t convenient is absurd: people drive places not because it’s more inconvenient.
Daisy 17:37 on 2012/10/29 Permalink
With IGA you can order online and have it delivered. (The delivery and/or assembly charge is up to the individual store.) I’ve been doing it for over 10 years.
I’m in my 30s and have never had a driver’s licence. I hope I never will.
Chris 20:37 on 2012/10/29 Permalink
Interesting discussion. Regarding kids and needing cars… North Americans seem generally unaware of cargo bikes, which is a shame, because they can carry many kids and many groceries. But owning one on the Plateau (for example) could be tricky because you need more space to store them (too wide to lock to a sidewalk pole).
It is perverse that it’s illegal to park your bike on the street, but allowable for your car.
I just walked up and down my block. 104 car parking spaces. 0 bike parking.
Jack 07:31 on 2012/10/30 Permalink
@ Steve , I have raised two kids, yes two without ever owning a car. My kids played soccer , took piano and karate lessons, walked to school, both elementary and high school and seem to be well adjusted. They now think living with a car would be a large pain in the ass.
Michel 09:19 on 2012/10/30 Permalink
@chris, cargo bikes are slooowwwly gaining a foothole here. I’m starting to see them more and more.
But, something I found out to my dismay on Friday, did you know that you’re not allowed to lock your bike on a sidewalk pole? That’s perverse.
Kevin 10:31 on 2012/10/30 Permalink
@ant6n
That kind of defeats the point! I mean, if I’m going to go to the store I might as well be capable of bringing all the stuff home — otherwise I’m extending the hours devoted to chores ;)
@Daisy
I’ll check out IGA.
@Chris
One thing that I had access to in Vancouver that I loved was a cargo trailer. Basically a Rubbermaid bin with an easy-to-attach trailer that I could unclip and wheel around the grocery store.
The catch is that Vancouver stores have much more aisle space. I’ve been to some places in Montreal where it wouldn’t fit.
It’s also not something I could see leaving outside in Montreal and having it survive more than a week.
ant6n 10:44 on 2012/10/30 Permalink
@Kevin
Well, if doing the groceries is just the shopping, without lugging the stuff home, the chore is much reduced. You can’t buy everything online anyway – you probably wouldn’t buy meats and produce without looking at it before, so you have to go to the store anyway. Plus, shopping 1-2 times a week rather than 3-4 times (if you don’t have a car) is an overall reduction in chore time.
The point is that delivery greatly reduces the dependency on having a car.
walkerp 18:02 on 2012/10/30 Permalink
Steven, I too have had a car and not had a car, and I can tell you, not having a car is way better. I consider it a luxury to be able to live in a place where I don’t need a car. Every now and then a car is needed, for a vacation or weekend getaway or to go do some shopping for big items far away (though that is super rare nowadays with the internet) and in those cases, we simply rent a car. Way cheaper across the year, way less headaches and stress, a much better quality of life. But given the car-oriented development of Canada, I recognize that this is a luxury only available to those who are able to live in a metropolitan core.
Now those people who do live in the core and still insist they need a car, I think there is some ideology and laziness going on there, quite frankly.
Chris 20:01 on 2012/10/30 Permalink
Michel, yes, very slooooowly, I’ve seen 3 or 4 this year vs only 0 or 1 last year. In fact, the only place you can legally lock a bike is against something explicitly meant for that purpose. Though it’s rarely enforced.