20:09 on 2012/08/29 Reply  

• Jack 20:47 on 2012/08/29 Permalink

  When are we going to stop letting politicians use linguistic terms to talk about race.It gives people like Lisee a pass on what is in essence racial discourse.When he says,” francophones are in peril of losing critical mass in Montreal. We need to do something about that.”He isn’t talking about language, he is talking about race, try this,”the white french origin majority are in peril of losing critical mass in Montreal. We need to do something about that.” That is exactly what he is saying, how can we change this, any ideas?

• ant6n 20:54 on 2012/08/29 Permalink

  Call him a nazi?

• Jack 21:06 on 2012/08/29 Permalink

  @ant6n not productive.

• Anto 21:21 on 2012/08/29 Permalink

  @Jack: Or maybe he’s talking about language?

• Jack 21:36 on 2012/08/29 Permalink

  @Anto what is a person who completes 12 years of French language instruction in Quebec.I’d say thats a francophone and so would every single socio-linguist in this galaxy, not in Quebec. When does an allophone become a francophone? How long does it take ? Is Amir Khadir a francophone, no he is an allophone ( if he and his wife admit to speaking their native Farsi at home, plus he’s kind off brown) Lisee is not talking about language, he doesn’t care, he is pandering to racial fears that are totally unfounded.
  By the way this is one of the reasons to vote QS,
  “Would the QS form a coalition with the PQ? No, Khadir said, because “we believe the PQ is too close to the corporate elite, and ethnic nationalism.” QS rejects the PQ’s “secular charter” that would ban the hijab and other non-christian symbols in the public service, Khadir said, and its controversial “citizenship tests.”
  He gets it and has the guts to say it, because unlike our other political leaders he can feel it.

• Anto 22:25 on 2012/08/29 Permalink

  @ Jack: I don’t doubt there’s a certain measure of xenophobia among certain members of the PQ (as there is in all political parties, everywhere in the world) but you’re blowing this way out of proportion. I’d rather vote QS on Tuesday, but I’ll probably be voting PQ as they have the best chance of beating the Liberals in Laurier-Dorion (by the way the PQ candidate in Laurier Dorionis kind of brown as well). I don’t do it for racist reasons, neither does everybody I know who’s voting PQ.

  It’s not racist to say francophones are leaving Montréal for the suburbs, it’s simple statistical fact. It’s not xenophobic to wish we can still live in French in Montréal in 50 years time. Is it possible for you to consider this is not an attack on immigrants, allophones or anglophones, it’s simply a way to make sure the French language, and the culture that comes with it, stay alive in a province that doesn’t have a country’s tools to make sure it does. We don’t have an ocean of 300 millions French speakers at our backs. French speaking Québecois can’t afford to act like a majority, as they’re not one.

  I welcome everybody, from all origins, that wants to come live in Québec. I don’t care what language they speak at home, it’s their business. All I want is to be able to work, shop and live in French in Montréal. That’s how I see it and that’s how everybody I know who’s voting PQ sees it.

  I’d encourage you to diversify your news sources, as I suspect you’re at least partly informed by prejudiced discourse that I see in a lot of Canadian English media (and I must say in certain comments I read here, despite my appreciation of Kate’s blog) that is at least as bad as the one you condemn.

• ant6n 22:49 on 2012/08/29 Permalink

  I always had the impression that the French Quebec Nationalists are mostly concerned with hating English and Anglophones, rather than being against foreigners per se. It seems that foreigners and people from ethnic minorities are considered ok as long as they are Francisized. I sometimes got attitude from Francophones when first moving here, because I didn’t speak French – when they found out I was from Europe, and not English, they were much more forgiving, but always reminded me to learn French.

  ((Remember how qatzelok and jeannaimard always went on about the English, and sometimes jews, but not really about any other ethnicities etc.))

  The impression I get from Francophones talking about the strong feelings against the English is that story about English Rich people oppressing Poor Working Class Francophones. As an outsider, it sometimes feels like Anglophones are willing to accept the abuse today because of this history. Well also, because of this paranoia that French is dying, and needs strong protections.

  The thing is, I would kind of reverse your point: You say that politicians talking about language is just a way to hide the underlying racism. To me the linguistic discussion feels very close to some form of racism itself – if racism is discriminating and hating people based on ethnicity, country of origin or skin color; here some discriminate and hate people based on the language that they grew up with, and whether they are able to learn French now, or what the parents’ language was. People find surprisingly rude behavior because somebody spoke the ‘wrong’ language acceptable, and there are even laws that involve barring people form schools based on language.
  But this perception is my own, and probably not shared by either Francophones or Anglophones in Quebec.

• ant6n 22:56 on 2012/08/29 Permalink

  @Anto
  “…it’s simply a way to make sure the French language, and the culture that comes with it, stay alive in a province that doesn’t have a country’s tools to make sure it does.”

  This is this subtle mind-connection between sovereignty and French, but how does it work? What tools would a country have that a province doesn’t? Quebec already has language laws, it has it’s official language, it controls immigration, etc.

• Steph 00:02 on 2012/08/30 Permalink

  Does anyone have any statistics on the change in population attending elementary school in English vs French since the implementation of Bill 101? The only stats I’ve seen recently that are causing the hem and hawing are the ‘initial bilingual greeting in stores in montreal has gone up 13%’, hello/bonjour, shocking!

• Kate 00:42 on 2012/08/30 Permalink

  For what it’s worth, and I’m not going to sit through 7 minutes of it, Thomas Gerbet tweets, linking to a video: “JF Lisée veut prioriser l’immigration d’un Français sur celle d’un Chinois francophone.” Surprised? Not really.

• Stefan 02:54 on 2012/08/30 Permalink

  As an allophone I see the Quebec language debate more from the outside. I find the Quebecois language and culture to be very rich, and also alive, which is demonstrated by its young.
  I believe that any kind of racism, be it subtle, or not, has its roots in fear. This fear may be based on something more or less objective (and often it correlates with our fear of the unknown, as racism seems to occurs most in homogenous cultures).
  To go to a doctor and not be able to communicate in your language is a very real reason to be afraid. To feel uncomfortable because you hear a person in your neighborhood speaking a different language, well, it just shows that you have a very tight comfort zone.
  At the extreme poles, there are two ways to deal with these fears: force your environment to act in a way homogenous with your native language (and probably, also cultural cues), or adapt to the fact that the world has changed and will still be changing. For example, I do not think that there are many fields left where relevant scientific articles will be accepted if not written in english.
  The older, the more difficult it is for most people to adapt. It may be interesting to look at the age structure of PQ voters. Parties with older voters overrepresented tend to lose significance over time.

• Jack 07:24 on 2012/08/30 Permalink

  @anto thanks for your response.First and foremost my media environment is almost exclusively french.I am the only one in my home who is an anglophone, our TV ,Radio, and newspapers are exclusively french language .So when I speak to my personal concerns they are driven by consuming french language media.
  You make my argument in your second paragraph,”it’s not racist to say francophones are leaving Montréal for the suburbs”. You are absolutely right thats why nationalist politicians say it,it gives them a pass to talk about race.What they are really saying is the white french origin majority are leaving Montreal for the suburbs and somehow that is the fault of allophones and anglophones who are somehow supplanting this “critical mass”.Lisee when he talks about francophones is not talking about Haitians,Arabs,Vietnamese, Senegalese etc. He is talking about the white french origin majority.He calls them francophones because we let him.
  In 50 years time anto I will be dead, but their is another certainty, the Quebec nationalist movement will be talking about the very near end of the French origin majority.If I had a nickel for every time I have heard a Quebec nationalist say that in 10,20,30 years Quebec will be merely another Louisiana, I would be a very rich man. In 1867 the french origin majority comprised 75% of the population, 140 years later 80%.These the sky is falling demographic predictions are invariably politically motivated guesses. anto if you ever get a chance see former PQ ministers Lise Payette’s ,”Disparaitre” see it. In 1992 she claimed that immigration would mean the end of the French Fact by………….2000.The last scene is particularly heart breaking with Gilles Vigneault,a tear in his eye, saying by 2000 it is over.

• Kevin 08:38 on 2012/08/30 Permalink

  C’est tres simple. Chaque fois qu’un politicien, ou le SSJB, ou Mouvement Montreal Francais/Imperatif Francais parle de ‘le recule du francais’ ou un abaissement de le francais a Montreal, il faut souvenir qu’ils auraient du utiliser “LES francais”. C’est tout. Simple, direct, et vrai.

  And really, that is what they are saying, because for most francophone Quebecers there is no difference between language and culture. I believe I’ve said it on this blog before about some of the crap that JF Lisee spewed while at l’actualite, but it’s only been in the past few years that knowing French has not been enough — the proponents of Bill 101 et al finally twigged after several decades that it was possible to learn French without becoming a Quebecois de souche.

  I would argue that this idea that learning another language changes your culture is also the reason that most of the current upper ranks of the PQ (and several Liberals) don’t speak English: They’re trapped in a stupid philosophy that language=culture, and that there is only one culture/language.

• Anto 10:21 on 2012/08/30 Permalink

  Here’s the full quote you were talking about Kate. I don’t see how it’s different to most countries’ immigration policies.

• Kate 10:34 on 2012/08/30 Permalink

  Anto, I’m in a hurry so can’t find you supporting links, but the distinction being made here is between people willing to speak French at work and in public life, and those who speak French at home. Lisée would make moves to ensure that it’s no longer enough to favour people who know French and are willing and able to work in French and carry on their lives outside the home in French. They also have to have French as a mother tongue, which would rule out many, many French-speaking people whose first language is Arabic, Vietnamese, Creole – or English.

  That’s a step beyond.

  Does any country with immigrants require not only that they speak the language but that they have been reared in that language since childhood?

• Anto 10:37 on 2012/08/30 Permalink

  That’s not what he says. He says somebody who speaks French at home would receive a few more points than somebody who speaks it as a second language. Obviously that’s not the only factor being considered, and in no way does it mean that people who speak French as a second language would be ruled out.

• Anto 10:42 on 2012/08/30 Permalink

  Norman spector discusses the subject with Lisée on his Twitter account.

• Kevin 10:54 on 2012/08/30 Permalink

  Yup, and in that exchange Lisee wants to see no more than 15% of Montrealers speak something that French as a mother tongue.
  It’s racism, pure and simple.

• Anto 11:02 on 2012/08/30 Permalink

  Kevin, he’s not talking about driving English speakers out, he’s talking about bringing French speakers in.

• Kevin 11:31 on 2012/08/30 Permalink

  No, he’s talking about bringing French-mother tongue people in, and says quite plainly that there are too many allos and anglos in Montreal.
  Look, the only realistic solution is to tell francophones they’re not allowed to move off the island, and must return to the days of massive families.

• ant6n 11:43 on 2012/08/30 Permalink

  As an aside – the number of points you get for French on an application for a Quebec Selection Certificate (the Quebec part of becoming a permanent resident) depends on your level of ability. A Chinese person would probably get fewer points than a person from France, anyway. (Incidentally, they also give points for English, but much fewer)

• Domenico Cotugno 22:09 on 2012/08/30 Permalink

  @Anto Sorta off-topic, but you said “I’d rather vote QS on Tuesday, but I’ll probably be voting PQ as they have the best chance of beating the Liberals in Laurier-Dorion”. According to the latest polls, QS has a real chance of taking Laurier-Dorion; it’s a three-way race. Your vote for QS could make a difference. http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-QeiuF4j8K_0/UD_EJPumznI/AAAAAAAAKK0/GhyWoLFq768/s1600/Ridings.PNG

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